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rayofsi
April 20th, 2012, 02:05 AM
Why hasn't anyone mentioned these yet
http://www.theretrofitsource.com/product_info.php?products_id=14906

Still wondering how well these will last being so close to a high heat source.
seems that it has a lifetime warranty though!

offroadkarter
April 20th, 2012, 02:28 AM
I was wondering the same. I saw them pop up on facebook, checked here and on TRS and didn't see anything....

Next build I do I think I'll be using these....

kcg795
April 20th, 2012, 02:30 AM
There was a Facebook post recently. Still, this is just awesome. I'd rather use LEDs than CCFLs. Seriously thinking about using these for my next retrofit so I can have DRLs again.

TRSMatt
April 20th, 2012, 07:32 AM
If anybody wants to try these out and post up their thoughts, shoot me an email and we'll work out a deal :)

bilinvic
April 20th, 2012, 11:21 AM
Hell ya....I need some of these Matt.

Are diffusers going to be available as well?

Sean Lezner
April 20th, 2012, 11:31 AM
I saw them yesterday and they look awesome! Supposedly brighter than CCFLs?

TRSMatt
April 20th, 2012, 12:02 PM
definitely brighter than CCFLs

for now, no diffusers though, just naked rings

bilinvic
April 20th, 2012, 12:31 PM
Thanxs Matt....in terms of Kelvin, were would the amber LED Angel Eyes fit? How close would it be to a 3000K HID bulb?

TRSMatt
April 20th, 2012, 12:39 PM
3K HID bulb would be more of a golden yellow, whereas these would be more of an orange - so not very close to be honest

bilinvic
April 20th, 2012, 12:52 PM
Honesty is the best policy....so they say.

Thanxs again.

offroadkarter
April 20th, 2012, 01:23 PM
any chance of making a LED angeleye switchback? You have amber, you have white, now put em together :D

SnakeDoctor
April 20th, 2012, 01:28 PM
the yellow color of the white one when off is not so great, only complaint. I put them behind the GG 2.0 but if you want them on top you will see the yellow ring.

They are rediculously bright though so Im going to try a light coat of paint on one this weekend to see how much it decreases brightness, Ill post some pics. would be sweet if a light coat of chrome worked, it would blend in with the shroud.

Here they are behing the GG 2.0

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h117/jedi_2006/2-43.jpg

casper3t
April 20th, 2012, 04:04 PM
I'm trying to picture how this would look on the E46-R Shroud.

gold94corolla
April 20th, 2012, 04:07 PM
So, how are the LEDs on the board? It's really hard to tell from the pics... but can you see each LED? And I'd assume that the rings are an ugly yellow color (for white LEDs)?

SnakeDoctor
April 20th, 2012, 04:29 PM
The led's a very tiny, theres 105 of them in the 90mm ring, when on it looks like a ccfl but 10x brighter. I have another order coming in tomorrow and will take a close up for you of them not lit. EDIT : if you look at the link in th OP you can see the led's in the first pic.

I took this one a while back before installing them.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h117/jedi_2006/12-8.jpg

soulsea
April 20th, 2012, 05:35 PM
Hey SD ... may I ask which size led rings you got for fitting behind the GG?

Thanks

SnakeDoctor
April 20th, 2012, 06:01 PM
90mm fits perfect back there. I used silicone to keep it in place. Thats the GG 2.0

gearbox
April 20th, 2012, 06:25 PM
looks nice. i agree the yellow phosphor of white leds keeps me from using them in open areas. im guessing the ambers are clear. its too bad they couldnt come up with any other way to make em other than blue leds and yellow phosphor. you can see this really dramatically on the newer led headlight cars like leaf and prius. when you look straight at the headlamp, its total yellow everywhere.

soulsea
April 20th, 2012, 06:55 PM
Well this is what I'm contemplating and perhaps you guys can chime in and advise me ...

I am personally not a big fan of halos or angel eyes for my truck, they look beautiful on many vehicles but to my eye not so much with the more elegant nature of the Denali.

BUT, I do need to run a DRL on my pending b-x RX350/Gatling retro. So my thought was to get a set of these, and somehow mount them between the projector and shroud towards the middle of the projector facing backwards so as to have them reflect forward off the reflector.

My thinking here is that in this configuration they will illuminate in the same way that my current H13 runs its low voltage high beam for drl, reflecting off the bulb cap to the back of the housing and then forward again.

So what do you think of the idea ... am I thinking it through correctly?
And I'm thinking that the smaller 70mm version would be a better fit as I'm guessing the projector is narrower at that spot than the 90mm needed at the front of the Gatling shroud?

lol, did any of that make sense? :)

qes
April 20th, 2012, 07:49 PM
If anybody wants to try these out and post up their thoughts, shoot me an email and we'll work out a deal :)

I'd love to, but I really need 80mm to go inside mini graphite shrouds. Nate sent me pictures of them on Tuesday and I would've jumped all over them, but the 70's are just a bit too small and the yellow overlaps the lens and sticks out of the shroud.


13152

13153

SnakeDoctor
April 20th, 2012, 08:06 PM
I'd love to, but I really need 80mm to go inside mini graphite shrouds. Nate sent me pictures of them on Tuesday and I would've jumped all over them, but the 70's are just a bit too small and the yellow overlaps the lens and sticks out of the shroud.


13152

13153

Yeah, not sure why they only got a few sizes, I need 80mm too. Nate mentioned he could special order them but it would be a 3 to 4 week wait.

qes
April 20th, 2012, 10:56 PM
Yeah, not sure why they only got a few sizes, I need 80mm too. Nate mentioned he could special order them but it would be a 3 to 4 week wait.

I may have misunderstood, but I think he told me they planned to stock the 80's, they just didn't get any on this order but they were already on the next order. We talked about seeing if they could special order 75's, but didn't follow through since 80 is the right size for the mini graphite's anyway. He did say they expect to have 80's within a few weeks.

rayofsi
April 20th, 2012, 10:56 PM
i'm just wondering, has anyone done any measurements of them?

outside and inside of the angel eyes, are the 100mm ones truely 100mm max diameter?

these look interesting to put in my fog lights, but i have to figure out which ones would work.

archeion
April 21st, 2012, 09:39 AM
I want to see these on an E46 also

StupidPig
April 21st, 2012, 04:59 PM
Wow, just received mine. The white one is insanely bright and no dot effect. The Amber is also very nice. LED there is 3 in serial, then all strings wired in parallel. Not sure the "driver" is a simple resistor or voltage regulator, as it is potted.

Edit: The driver looks like a step-down, output at about 11.3v.

Sean Lezner
April 21st, 2012, 05:31 PM
Wow, just received mine. The white one is insanely bright and no dot effect. The Amber is also very nice. LED there is 3 in serial, then all strings wired in parallel. Not sure the "driver" is a simple resistor or voltage regulator, as it is potted.

Edit: The driver looks like a step-down, output at about 11.3v.

I thought this thing just came out? You guys already have one?

SCIENCEEE
April 21st, 2012, 05:50 PM
If anybody wants to try these out and post up their thoughts, shoot me an email and we'll work out a deal :)

Hmm, is it possible to wire these in with turn signals? That would be pretty cool for the amber. I'd definitely take you up on your offer.

EDIT: I see that you can. Nice... Would the 90mm amber fit the Apollo shroud? Anyone have pics of the Apollo with angel eyes?

soulsea
April 21st, 2012, 06:04 PM
Well since no one was able to help me with my question I went ahead and ordered the 70mm white to see if I can guinea pig this setup. :shrug:

SnakeDoctor
April 21st, 2012, 06:26 PM
Well since no one was able to help me with my question I went ahead and ordered the 70mm white to see if I can guinea pig this setup. :shrug:


hey sorry bro, ive been doing this for a while for my canada clients(firing them backwards) it works great as drl's,. you will be fine, especially if your using a open projector were the lens can catch the light.

heres the ambers behind G37 -

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h117/jedi_2006/1-63.jpg

soulsea
April 21st, 2012, 06:46 PM
Thanks SD ... did I do right to order the 70mm?
My understanding is that it's not was wide back there as if the were installed at the front of the shroud.

SnakeDoctor
April 21st, 2012, 06:51 PM
What projector and shroud are you running ? with the MH1 and GG 2.0 I need the 90 mm to fit behind it.

soulsea
April 21st, 2012, 06:56 PM
rx350 b-x - Gatling

SnakeDoctor
April 21st, 2012, 07:03 PM
also I sprayed one with chrome just for shits and giggles... lost about 1/3 brightness. Looks way better off but its not worth it IMO for the light loss. Maybe one of you guys can come up with a better solution.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h117/jedi_2006/2-53.jpg

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h117/jedi_2006/3-33.jpg

SnakeDoctor
April 21st, 2012, 07:08 PM
rx350 b-x - Gatling

Not familiar with that projector so I cant say for sure but 70 sounds a little small. Just call TRS first thing monday and they will let you know and switch your order to the right size if need be.

soulsea
April 21st, 2012, 07:12 PM
Will do ... otherwise I might buy a set of 90mm as well and either return or resell whichever one doesn't work.

Thanks again for all your help ... I think if I can make it work it will work well as drl reflecting of the massive lighthouse size Yukon reflector. :)

falah
April 21st, 2012, 09:01 PM
I wonder what size goes inside a Gatling Gun?! any thoughts

soulsea
April 21st, 2012, 09:02 PM
Normally the GG takes 90mm ccfl at the front.

rayofsi
April 21st, 2012, 09:57 PM
can someone with them in hand and measure the ouside diameter, is that diameter exact to what trs sells it as, 90mm will measure 90mm exact etc.

StupidPig
April 22nd, 2012, 12:12 AM
^^^ Size is outside diameter.

One side note, the inside is one size down, for example, 100mm ring is 100mm O.D. and 90mm I.D. They actually work great by having different size rings putting together, for example, 100mm + 90mm. Too bad they have no 80mm yet.....

thisaznboi88
April 22nd, 2012, 12:57 AM
o man. this looks good.

rayofsi
April 22nd, 2012, 02:00 AM
^^^ Size is outside diameter.

One side note, the inside is one size down, for example, 100mm ring is 100mm O.D. and 90mm I.D. They actually work great by having different size rings putting together, for example, 100mm + 90mm. Too bad they have no 80mm yet.....
that is good! i was thinking that i could possibly do that, putting a 90mm one inside a 100mm one.

archeion
April 22nd, 2012, 02:20 PM
How are people mounting these?

SnakeDoctor
April 23rd, 2012, 08:55 AM
Got a couple sets done this weekend. The quality of these is amazing, the white is almost blinding, hahaha.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h117/jedi_2006/1-63.jpg

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h117/jedi_2006/2-54.jpg

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h117/jedi_2006/3-34.jpg

SCIENCEEE
April 23rd, 2012, 09:33 AM
Can you post how they look with projectors on? I'm wanting to use them as turn signals, but there isn't really a point if you can't see them when the projectors are on.

Damien22
April 23rd, 2012, 03:43 PM
Omg I just received mine today and they are sooo bright.

Quick question? Can the resistor be left inside the back of the headlight housing? Cause the wire isnt long enough to go outside and wouldn't like to cut it to extend it.

TRSMatt
April 23rd, 2012, 04:07 PM
yeah it should be OK, it will get a bit warm after time in use - but I dont think hot enough to harm anything

Damien22
April 23rd, 2012, 04:25 PM
yeah it should be OK, it will get a bit warm after time in use - but I dont think hot enough to harm anything

Ok

Thanks Matt

rayofsi
April 23rd, 2012, 11:05 PM
can someone take a picture of the 90mm fitted inside the 100mm if anyone has a set around.

0212353
April 24th, 2012, 09:27 PM
to say they are bright is an understatement. holy SHIT! Got a set of 70s in and WOW

Anyone stick one on the front of a mini gatling yet?

domino
April 24th, 2012, 11:22 PM
Can you see the individual LEDs through the slits in the Gatling shroud when off?

0212353
April 24th, 2012, 11:36 PM
doubtful.

Its hard to see them bastards when your face is right next to it.

domino
April 24th, 2012, 11:41 PM
Snake doctor behind which row of slits did you mount the led ring behind the g37 shroud?

I'm trying to decide which shroud to go with to use the led as DRL here in Aus - keep going back n forth bw the Gatling v1 and v2

Thinking now the g37 could work well if you block the remaining vent rows with black electrical tape to stop light scatter into the reflector

SnakeDoctor
April 25th, 2012, 05:50 AM
Snake doctor behind which row of slits did you mount the led ring behind the g37 shroud?

I'm trying to decide which shroud to go with to use the led as DRL here in Aus - keep going back n forth bw the Gatling v1 and v2

Thinking now the g37 could work well if you block the remaining vent rows with black electrical tape to stop light scatter into the reflector


I used 100mm

offroadkarter
April 30th, 2012, 11:05 PM
Alright, I finally got to use these, here are some observations and opinions....


Pros: Very ****in bright
Not fragile like CCFL's
no ballasts needed

Cons: Not flexible like CCFL's
Why do the wires have pins on them if they supply no connector for them?



I used 100mm white rings in my friends retro, I put them behind the E46-R Extended shroud. When I did this with my car, I used 100mm CCFL's, which once I bent a slight bit, fit perfectly. I didn't realize this and when I went to use the LED's, the fitment is so off. I surrounded it with aluminum tape hoping since its so bright it'll just reflect through no problem. Well it does, kinda...

Top LED bottom CCFLhttp://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd368/ModularMadness/CAM%20Meet%204_29_12/d8e238a5.jpg
http://bondospecial.smugmug.com/2003MercuryMarauder/HIDs/i-VgL7ZXr/0/M/DSCN3016-M.jpg
The bottom part is coming through yellow. Can anyone put a 90mm LED ring behind a E46 extended and see if it fits and illuminates evenly without piss yellow light?

RSM
May 1st, 2012, 12:30 AM
I'm guessing these aren't waterproof at all? Was thinking of using the amber ones with my bullet shrouds/blazer fogs but they're exposed.

gold94corolla
May 1st, 2012, 08:52 PM
How are CCFLs flexible?????

Bigboy
May 1st, 2012, 09:57 PM
^ +1 I flexed mine very little and it shattered.

offroadkarter
May 1st, 2012, 11:03 PM
^ +1 I flexed mine very little and it shattered.

Yeah I broke one of mine cause I bent it to far, but the other one I was able to fit in no problem. the LED ring is 100% rigid with no give at all. thats the difference that allows me to have an evenly lit shroud vs one thats bright and half dim piss yellow.

Sean Lezner
May 2nd, 2012, 02:33 AM
That halo looks sweet behind that shroud but I've always thought a solid uniformed look for halo's like BMW's looked better.

SnakeDoctor
May 2nd, 2012, 07:24 PM
Just finished this set for a client... evil eyes.

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h117/jedi_2006/1-65.jpg

SCIENCEEE
May 2nd, 2012, 07:26 PM
Those look nice!

Loving my amber xB's.

Bigboy
May 2nd, 2012, 08:57 PM
That really looks good, bright ass shit also!!! Are the ambers visible in direct sunlight?

SCIENCEEE
May 2nd, 2012, 10:01 PM
That really looks good, bright ass shit also!!! Are the ambers visible in direct sunlight?

I haven't tested in direct sunlight, but I have tested while the sun is out.

http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/8152185/img/Retrofit/P1010187.jpg (http://picturepush.com/public/8152185)

gearbox
May 3rd, 2012, 12:08 AM
nice and bright wow and very even lighting.

rayofsi
May 3rd, 2012, 12:17 AM
got my 90mm and 100mm ambers today, definitely seems useful, very nice that they appear to have some sort of voltage regulator instead of a resistor.
going to use both 90mm and 100mms stacked inside my fog lights, have to reopen my fogs to make sure the 100mms fit though. will run them as drl with the option of using them for signaling in the future.

falah
May 3rd, 2012, 12:19 AM
any pics on first Gen GG's

SnakeDoctor
May 3rd, 2012, 06:11 AM
I'd like to do the stacked idea also, sure would be sweet to get some more sizes.... 80mm and 120mm... hint, hint, MATT hahahha.

TRSMatt
May 3rd, 2012, 07:31 AM
80 for sure is coming in the next week or so. 120 and 140 will be on deck after that

Sean Lezner
May 3rd, 2012, 09:44 AM
80 for sure is coming in the next week or so. 120 and 140 will be on deck after that

Nice! Hey Matt, When did you switch from your LS430 or LS450 setup to the Q45? How do you like them?

SCIENCEEE
May 3rd, 2012, 09:53 AM
Nice! Hey Matt, When did you switch from your LS430 or LS450 setup to the Q45? How do you like them?

If you have a facebook account, I think he made a post on their page about it with a pic. :)

Sean Lezner
May 3rd, 2012, 10:15 AM
If you have a facebook account, I think he made a post on their page about it with a pic. :)

Alright cool, thanks for the heads up.

@TRSMatt: Did you guys ever get your site updated to reflect the changes to the Morimoto 3Five and 5Five ballasts?

TRSMatt
May 3rd, 2012, 01:02 PM
yeah I always wanted Q45's - the output is decent, but nowhere near as good as my LS460's were that's for sure.

We have not updated our website yet with the ballast info, will be doing in the next week or so as we phase out 100% of the original 3five/5Five's

Sean Lezner
May 3rd, 2012, 01:07 PM
yeah I always wanted Q45's - the output is decent, but nowhere near as good as my LS460's were that's for sure.

I always liked the looks of them but for the price and not that amazing of performance I never went through with it.


We have not updated our website yet with the ballast info, will be doing in the next week or so as we phase out 100% of the original 3five/5Five's

Alright cool, I was wondering if they were phased out yet. :)

NewShockerGuy
May 4th, 2012, 11:17 AM
Matt,

These look awesome. What size would work best with the normal gatling gun shrouds for the insides of them? I know normally 100mm ccfl would work and I ended up getting led rings from superbrightleds months ago that are 100mm but these look smoother and the leds are much closer together. Would 100mm still be a good fit for the inner part of the shroud that fits behind where the hub centric ring would be or would 90mm be best?

Thanks,
-Nigel

Jouwd
May 5th, 2012, 12:59 PM
What is the best way to mount these guys? Used thin wire like the original CCFL's or is there a better way?

rayofsi
May 6th, 2012, 12:55 PM
can someone point out how i can wire these up for DRL AND Turn Signal? do i just need some sort of diode on the power supply lines from drl and turn signal?

SnakeDoctor
May 6th, 2012, 07:49 PM
What is the best way to mount these guys? Used thin wire like the original CCFL's or is there a better way?

Im using aluminum tape and silicone for a inside mount and silicone or epoxy for outside mount depending on the shroud.\.

luvlexus101
May 7th, 2012, 09:43 AM
Ordered mine. 120 mm and 130 mm. Once I get them I'll post up pics!

rayofsi
May 7th, 2012, 10:54 AM
Ordered mine. 120 mm and 130 mm. Once I get them I'll post up pics!
whered you get 120mm and 130mm!

luvlexus101
May 7th, 2012, 11:10 AM
whered you get 120mm and 130mm!

Talk to Matt!

Goatcheese
May 7th, 2012, 05:53 PM
Do you guys think some tail light lens tint paint would cover up the yellow but still allow light through?

rayofsi
May 7th, 2012, 10:01 PM
80 for sure is coming in the next week or so. 120 and 140 will be on deck after that
any chance of 110mm?

drums4life687
May 8th, 2012, 04:11 PM
Matt,

Do you have any pictures of these yet in a mini gatling gun shroud? Would you use the 70 mm for this? I have a quad retrofit I'm doing right now and would love to try these for this application!

TRSMatt
May 8th, 2012, 04:18 PM
1368913690


Like these? :)

offroadkarter
May 8th, 2012, 05:03 PM
any chance of 110mm?

Or how bout a 95mm that we can use behind the E46-R-E

gold94corolla
May 8th, 2012, 06:26 PM
Gosh if only they weren't green/yellow :(

SCIENCEEE
May 8th, 2012, 07:01 PM
I'll join on the size bandwagon.

60mm?

Jouwd
May 8th, 2012, 07:37 PM
1368913690


Like these? :)

Im getting that exact setup! :)

Sean Lezner
May 13th, 2012, 02:46 PM
If I can get it to work, Do you guys think these would work alright as tail lights if I used two or more of them?

gold94corolla
May 13th, 2012, 03:58 PM
Tail lights are red.... so no....

Sean Lezner
May 13th, 2012, 06:13 PM
Tail lights are red.... so no....

Haha thanks for the common sense tip smarta** lol. I'm just curious if TRS ever decided to offer it in a Red option if it could be sufficient enough to be used as a tail light.

gold94corolla
May 13th, 2012, 09:33 PM
Hey, it's not common sense for everyone. If they made them in red, they would most definitely be bright enough for the dim parking light tail function... maybe not for the brake though

SnakeDoctor
May 14th, 2012, 07:00 AM
they do come in red. special order only. TRS has a set coming in for someone. I bet if you ask Matt he will post a pic.

blue and green also, its like a month wait time though for special order..

gold94corolla
May 14th, 2012, 07:16 AM
Matt's always got tricks up his sleeve ;)

TRSMatt
May 14th, 2012, 08:38 AM
we'll get some red's in soon that another customer special ordered

SCIENCEEE
May 14th, 2012, 11:48 AM
we'll get some red's in soon that another customer special ordered

Can you comment on the final size lineup?

Goatcheese
May 17th, 2012, 10:46 AM
I tried a light coat of black lens tint. It turned the yellow ring to a dark OD green and made the light output look horrible.

TRSAndrew
May 17th, 2012, 03:03 PM
Matt's always got tricks up his sleeve ;)

Pssssh! The red rings were also ordered for me. Matt's not the only one here! ;)

http://i49.tinypic.com/2v00dud.jpg

StupidPig
May 17th, 2012, 03:19 PM
I hate red! because it is the most difficult light color to be captured decently with a camera. haha :p

TRSAndrew
May 17th, 2012, 03:20 PM
Let alone an iPhone with a scuffed lens cover!

TRSMatt
May 17th, 2012, 04:00 PM
I can see that, those pics suck! haha these XB's deserve better

SCIENCEEE
May 17th, 2012, 04:27 PM
Any chance of 60mm Xb's guys?

I found a place that has 60mm led amber angel eyes for ~20/pair. But I would like to have them match the xb in my headlights and the brightness the xb has. Which of course those would not.

qes
May 17th, 2012, 04:42 PM
80mm's in yet?

gold94corolla
May 17th, 2012, 07:46 PM
Bummer, if I had known about the red rings, I probably would have used a bunch of them on my IS.

TRSMatt
May 18th, 2012, 07:32 AM
60mm is probably the least popular size we carry for CCFL so Im not sure if it'd be worth doing for the XB, but there's a chance.

80's are in now, yes sir!

qes
May 18th, 2012, 11:40 AM
80's are in now, yes sir!

So do the 80's fit inside the mini graphite shrouds? Could you post a pic of how they look in them?

TRSAndrew
May 21st, 2012, 04:02 PM
So do the 80's fit inside the mini graphite shrouds? Could you post a pic of how they look in them?

They sure do. Perfect fit. You have to cut out those two plastic studs the shroud and then the LED ring presses nearly the entire way forward. They're too bright to capture on camera even with the smoked shroud!

drums4life687
May 24th, 2012, 11:55 PM
So I saw some pictures with the 70 mm xB's inside the mini graphite shroud however, I'm curious what the 80 mm xB's look like on the graphite? I wold think the extra cm would really help hide the green color...any pictures of a lit and unlit mini graphite with the 80 mm xB's???

soundman98
May 25th, 2012, 07:24 PM
anyone willing to do a photo-tear down of a set(if not, TRS, do you have any partially-defective/broken ones you could send me?)

stockd15b
May 25th, 2012, 07:37 PM
I just used a these on a set i did for a guy, holly cow are they bright.
http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/540582_449793591714591_324686827_n.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e55/Code3gt/IMAG1127.jpg

anyone know what size to fit in behind the e46? im guessing 90mm.

TRSAndrew
May 25th, 2012, 08:51 PM
I know 100s fit behind the extended version

TRSAndrew
May 27th, 2012, 12:37 PM
Rear-facing red 100s

http://i47.tinypic.com/2m3slcz.jpg

Front-facing white 100s

http://i46.tinypic.com/2gvt3x3.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/28usqj7.jpg

SnakeDoctor
May 27th, 2012, 02:03 PM
Nice Andrew, Your retro looks killer man.

Just curious what does it look like with both red and white on ?

Adam
May 27th, 2012, 02:45 PM
Man those rear facing red rings look mean!

TRSAndrew
May 27th, 2012, 05:13 PM
Nice Andrew, Your retro looks killer man.

Just curious what does it look like with both red and white on ?

Thanks! The red is not all that visible with the white on, although Val thinks otherwise.

stockd15b
May 28th, 2012, 11:19 AM
what other colors can be special ordered? gotz the gears turning..

TRSMatt
May 29th, 2012, 08:06 AM
blue, red, green for special order, white and amber in stock normally

0212353
May 29th, 2012, 09:09 AM
you know..............the yellow isn't as bad as I thought.

http://retroshop.us/4th%20Gen%20Quads%20-%20Projectors%20-%20xB%20LED%20Halos/slides/DSC06748.JPG

http://retroshop.us/4th%20Gen%20Quads%20-%20Projectors%20-%20xB%20LED%20Halos/slides/DSC06749.JPG

http://retroshop.us/4th%20Gen%20Quads%20-%20Projectors%20-%20xB%20LED%20Halos/slides/DSC06751.JPG

GTP Guy
May 29th, 2012, 11:18 AM
you know..............the yellow isn't as bad as I thought.

http://retroshop.us/4th%20Gen%20Quads%20-%20Projectors%20-%20xB%20LED%20Halos/slides/DSC06748.JPG

http://retroshop.us/4th%20Gen%20Quads%20-%20Projectors%20-%20xB%20LED%20Halos/slides/DSC06749.JPG

http://retroshop.us/4th%20Gen%20Quads%20-%20Projectors%20-%20xB%20LED%20Halos/slides/DSC06751.JPG

That actually doesn't look too bad ... For all the time you'll actually see it not lit up anyways.

gold94corolla
May 30th, 2012, 05:59 PM
Maybe the yellow looks better in person, cause I'm still not sold on the look.

soundman98
May 30th, 2012, 08:04 PM
^+1

(and i'm only asking because the site says you guys put the r&d time into them..) what's the reason for the external phosophor in the white version? why couldn't you just use white smd leds? i first thought that the idea was omitted because it was too spotty, but all the other variations don't have a diffuser layer that i can see in the pics, so it doesn't make sense to me..

norwichdelta06
May 31st, 2012, 09:02 PM
Alright, I finally got to use these, here are some observations and opinions....


Pros: Very ****in bright
Not fragile like CCFL's
no ballasts needed

Cons: Not flexible like CCFL's
Why do the wires have pins on them if they supply no connector for them?



I used 100mm white rings in my friends retro, I put them behind the E46-R Extended shroud. When I did this with my car, I used 100mm CCFL's, which once I bent a slight bit, fit perfectly. I didn't realize this and when I went to use the LED's, the fitment is so off. I surrounded it with aluminum tape hoping since its so bright it'll just reflect through no problem. Well it does, kinda...

Top LED bottom CCFL

The bottom part is coming through yellow. Can anyone put a 90mm LED ring behind a E46 extended and see if it fits and illuminates evenly without piss yellow light?



Did yuo drill holes for the light vents? Or do those shrouds come with holes in them already? Because those shrouds would do perfect for my next retrofit. So i wouldnt have to cut my shroud

FlyRyde
June 2nd, 2012, 02:36 AM
Anyone take a chance and cut into these yet? I would love to know where I can cut them. Also, getting this EXACT technology, but in straight bars... holy crap. They are so thin, and outperform EVERYTHING in brightness!

These are some of the e46 shrouds that used them with on a EvoX retro:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5454/7147831973_4efbcfe6b9.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8159/7001747554_324df4c7f0.jpg

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5333/7001739332_ebb00009c4.jpg

And another on a Genesis Coupe. I love em :)

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu7/FlyRyde/Super-Angel-Eyes-16-sm.jpg

You can see em super clear, in bright sunlight, way down the street:

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu7/FlyRyde/Super-Angel-Eyes-18-sm.jpg

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu7/FlyRyde/Super-Angel-Eyes-09-sm.jpg
http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu7/FlyRyde/Super-Angel-Eyes-17-sm.jpg

gold94corolla
June 2nd, 2012, 12:15 PM
^^^ those do look pretty cool :)

TRSMatt
June 4th, 2012, 07:55 AM
FlyRyde, yeah you can scrape the phosphor coating off the face to kill the light in certain areas

straight bars would be badass, straight bars that would remain flexible even more badass!

SKURD
June 4th, 2012, 07:12 PM
Maybe a Frosted glass spray would make these babies look more white..

bilinvic
June 4th, 2012, 10:40 PM
Are the 120mm in stock yet Matt?

TRSMatt
June 5th, 2012, 11:16 AM
not yet, but we are working on 120, 140 and 160mm diameters for the XB LED's

JnC
June 5th, 2012, 11:50 AM
160mm :woah:

offroadkarter
June 5th, 2012, 02:24 PM
we really need a 95mm to put behind the E46-R extended shrouds :( I see a few posts up, that retro had the same problem I did, it glows green because its not lined up behind correctly

StupidPig
June 5th, 2012, 02:52 PM
straight bars would be badass, straight bars that would remain flexible even more badass!
Did I smelled something being cook? :)

TRSMatt
June 5th, 2012, 05:08 PM
hm perhaps ;)

soundman98
June 5th, 2012, 08:12 PM
I couldn't resist pulling some rings apart once i got them, esp since the site lists the little cylinder as a resistor, and someone here said it output 11.8v, and believed it was a voltage regulator...

well, your both wrong, and i like the design that they went with.

it's all smd components.. there's a bridge rectifier on the input,(soic-4 size) meaning polarity doesn't matter, which goes into a nice pwm-capable(not used, but nice to see it there) 1A led driver (SOT89-5 size), plus a few caps, and a inductor to reduce oscillation. overall looks to be well built. (no, considering the product/site, i won't be posting the model numbers)

StupidPig
June 5th, 2012, 08:50 PM
Care to post the picture or the part# for the "driver"? I doubt it is a CC driver, or if it is, I think it won't help protecting the LED ring at all, as all LED strings on the ring are connected in parallel. In general I won't call a voltage regulator as LED driver, to me when you are using an LED driver, you shouldn't need to rely on current limiting resistor on the LED string to control how much current pass through the string.

soundman98
June 5th, 2012, 09:04 PM
it's a Maxic MT7201 chip. and i agree that running all the strings in parallel isn't exactly the best way to utilize a led driver.. while i'm sure it helps that all the led's are on the same mounting base, so heat is roughly distributed evenly, that is still a lot of parallel strings.

StupidPig
June 5th, 2012, 09:16 PM
Any way you can read or measure the resistor between Isense and Vin? Could like to see what Current it is outputting.... And then now I was wondering the "driver" is shared with all ring size, or each size ring has it's own.

soundman98
June 5th, 2012, 10:38 PM
i believe it's shared across all of them, at least for the yellow variations. i have a yellow 105mm ring from snake doctor that was burned up, and resistor value is the same, i also ordered 2 pairs(one yellow, one white) of 70mm rings before snake doctor agreed to send that bad one to me.. i've only opened up my yellow ring driver, but there are no external indications that set them apart, so i don't believe the white one is any different.


anyways, i've gone this far, i might as well go the whole way...

my macro photography at it worst. i wanted to desolder the whole board and figure out all the traces anyways, so the pics were so i could remember were most of it goes--the caps aren't marked, so between that and breaking half of them, i can't put them back correctly anyways. the idea was to take it apart, figure out how it works, put it back together, and then make use of it, but breaking the inductor was the first indication this is not going back together without new parts..


side 1:
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm302/soundman98/IMG_6349.jpg

from right to left(it was left to right, but it got changed trying to get better light on the chips markings):
1.MB6S rectifier
2.unknown capacitor. broke it while removing, i think it might be a 22nF, but couldn't get a good reading.
3.MT7201 led driver
4. R330 resistor--measures 0.8ohms
5.capacitor--11nF

side 2:
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm302/soundman98/IMG_6350.jpg

from right to left:
1. capacitor 80nF
2. unknown--it fell out of sight
3. SS24 2A diode
4. inductor--i broke it removing the potting, but the datasheet says this is supposed to be 47uH
5.capacitor--104nF

TRSMatt
June 6th, 2012, 04:01 PM
that would be the inside of the mini voltage regulator :)

StupidPig
June 6th, 2012, 04:21 PM
A R330 resistor should be 0.33ohm. From datasheet, that means the output is 303mA. The whole idea on using a CC output is a bit confusing for me, as the no. of LED string is different between different ring size, that will also means the current flow thru each LED string is different on each different size LED ring.

soundman98
June 6th, 2012, 04:40 PM
it very well could be. i might need to pull out my analog meter to test it. i don't trust digital meters for resistances that low.

turbo13b
June 10th, 2012, 02:26 PM
that would be the inside of the mini voltage regulator :)

Does my red one have a voltage regulator too?

soundman98
June 10th, 2012, 03:12 PM
if it has that little silver cylinder then yes it does have the control circuit.(it's a led driver[varies the voltage while outputting a constant current], but the application circuit isn't making good use of the drivers output with so many parallel strings)

03tahoe2012
June 16th, 2012, 02:54 PM
Well one of my drivers burned out last night:(

Hopefully Matt can get me on my way again!

I really want to finish this quad up lolz

TRSMatt
June 18th, 2012, 08:50 AM
thats no good! yeah we'll get you fixed up just contact us today about it

btm757
June 18th, 2012, 10:12 AM
I may have to order me a set of those red ones for my tail lights it would look cool for some running lights.

branded
June 18th, 2012, 11:24 AM
I couldn't resist pulling some rings apart once i got them, esp since the site lists the little cylinder as a resistor, and someone here said it output 11.8v, and believed it was a voltage regulator...

well, your both wrong, and i like the design that they went with.

it's all smd components.. there's a bridge rectifier on the input,(soic-4 size) meaning polarity doesn't matter, which goes into a nice pwm-capable(not used, but nice to see it there) 1A led driver (SOT89-5 size), plus a few caps, and a inductor to reduce oscillation. overall looks to be well built. (no, considering the product/site, i won't be posting the model numbers)

So you're saying there's no regulation going on here? The ring's actually powered at 12v, less a couple diode drops?

edit: I see after reading further down that it's an LED driver but for some reason has the same output regardless of Ring size?
Something can't be right.....

StupidPig
June 18th, 2012, 01:45 PM
There are current limiting resistor on the back side of the ring for each LED string, so the LED is protected to certain extend. The use of same constant current driver with different no. of parallel strings on different ring size is still a mystery.

branded
June 18th, 2012, 02:18 PM
@stupid, et al....I just bought a couple pairs of these things so I want as much info as I can get on the "mystery" anomalies. Maybe I missed it in a previous post but has anyone just simply checked the voltage out (input to ring) on this device? What is it?

On the off chance, has anyone done this (measure the output volts) when also varying the input voltage from say 11v up to perhaps 15v?

If not then I'll do it when I get mine. I'm leaning to this device being a Voltage regulator instead of a current regulator, else...it makes no sense that the 'one size fits all'.

TIA
Bob T.

StupidPig
June 18th, 2012, 02:41 PM
At the beginning I was thought that the driver is a constant voltage device, however, Soundman take the driver out and found the chip is MT7201, which is a constant current LED driver.

Same driver for all ring size is just an assumption at the moment, based on the fact the there is no marking on the driver itself and all looks same.

I think I tried supply different voltage to the driver, and the brightness is constant. I can take some measurement for the output tonight.

branded
June 18th, 2012, 03:13 PM
On second thought if I were packaging something like this with the LED density/MM they have on these rings I would want to externally dissipate power so that I can keep the ring as cool as possible, else, you would need the traditional resistor/LED and this would cause lots of heat to buildup in the substrate (whatever the heck that stuff is).

I guess some empirical external evaluation is necessary to see what makes this thing 'tick'....

Another question I have is when you guys have bought rings are the Regulators bagged with a single ring or are they boxed/packaged separately? If bagged individually they could be matched to a ring size even though it certainly would be 'sloppy' engineering not to identify their uniqueness as matched to a particular size.....

soundman98
June 18th, 2012, 09:33 PM
i have 2 different size rings that i am messing with-- a 105mm amber ring that snakedoctor sent me that he accidentally damaged, and 2 pairs of 70mm rings, in white and amber, that i ordered myself--so far, i have only dissected 2 out of 5 drivers(the one from the 105mm ring, and one from my 70mm amber ring).. the 105 and 70mm rings used the exact same driver circuit, right down to the 'control' resistor value.

maybe this saturday i can take apart one of the white-ring drivers to confirm, but i don't expect it to be any different.


branded-- it seems like you're not very familiar with led drivers-- led drivers are constant current devices-- specifically, led's are prone to thermal runaway. i started typing a explanation for thermal runaway, but it only got more confusing.. here's a excerpt from the led center at led.linear1.org (http://led.linear1.org/what-is-thermal-runaway/):


When a junction gets warmer, the current through it at a given voltage will increase. The increased current in turn heats the junction further, and the problem gets worse. Eventually, if nothing limits the current, the junction will fail due to the heat. Because of thermal runaway, it’s important to use some current limiting circuit even with a regulated voltage source. A current limiting resistor is the typical solution for most hobbyists, while circuit designers may prefer to use a current source based on one or more transistors

thermal runaway is really only issue with larger led's consuming at least 0.5w or more, usually anything below the superflux category doesn't suffer as much from it-- small led's are still completely capable of thermal runaway, but because they consume much less power, it is harder for them to reach that point.

so a led driver will maintain a constant current-- in the case of the xb's, it will maintain outputting 1A, but will change the voltage going to the led's based on the requirements of the led's. but because there are multiple parallel led strings, the tech really kind of falls to the way-side--it's litterally being used as a 1A-12v driver.. there is nothing preventing a string of led's from consuming more power then another string--which is the entire reason behind using a led driver...

i believe that when stupidpig measured the output of the driver, he probably did so without the led board connected-- which should give the input voltage minus the internal losses of the bridge rectifier, blocking diode, and led driver... at least that is how i see it in my head(which hasn't been quite right for a while)

branded
June 18th, 2012, 10:49 PM
I see it this way though:

Take one LED, no resistor, forward bias it until it's in it's operating range. At this time increasing the voltage across the LED will cause increased current flow but the voltage across the device is (practically speaking) fixed at 1.7V.
The "Driver" needs only to adjust it's output such that it's at 1.7 volts and say 5ma for a single LED. Let's say this is our 70MM ring.

Now let's add two more LED's to the circuit and call it our 100MM ring.
So now this ring needs 15ma to bias the LED's into their operating range.

The question is, what does the "Driver" need to do?

If it's a voltage regulator, and it is indeed, it needs to maintain 1.7 volts fixed and in doing that the additional current will be supplied (assume the regulator has a max 1A capacity). You can continue adding LED's (Larger rings) until you've reached the capacity of the regualtor.

Now note that in this scenario that the regualtor itself will get pretty hot because 12V-1.7V= 10.3V and P=IxE, so the regulator would need to dissipate 10 watts at the full 1A capacity....

The first thing (you) or I need to verify is whether or not the voltage is fixed out of the Driver. Then it's regualting voltage and it doesn't matter what the size of the ring is, the voltage will always be the same.

BTW, someone here mentioned that there are three LED's in series and many of these groups in parallel. So the output of the regulator likely is 5 volts (3 X 1.7V)......


So, I was wrong in that you can *indeed* use the same regulator from Ring size to Ring size as long as you don't exceed the regulator's current output capacity and it's power rating.

This thing's (regulator) likely getting pretty hot if this is the way it's working. This is the trade for not using the resistors in series with the LED's on the substrate.....(not to delve into minutia but there's likely a what's called an "equalization" resistor in each LED path but it would be very small in value and dissipate very little heat).

Disclaimer- My analysis is based on what i read in this thread and my own intuition in believing that there are no series resistors integral to the Ring itself, a trade to reduce heat in the Ring itself. That's the way I would design something like this.

P.S. I ignored your assertion that I don't understand "Drivers". This could only be, functionally, a CV device or a CC device. "Driver" means nothing other than describe a device, or group of devices that source another functional block, in this case a single Ring.
Also, don't know why you would bring up Thermal Runaway. It's not happening here, at least not with the LED's. Perhaps the rugulator but not the LED's....TR usually is catostrophic and destroys the component.

Anyway, here's a simplified schematic of how I think this system works....

14493

StupidPig
June 19th, 2012, 01:25 PM
Alright, I took some measurement for the driver output with the 70mm and 100mm White. Keep in mind the DMM I used for the measurement is something pretty cheap, so there is going to be some error.

70mm Driver:
- With 70mm ring, 0.30A, 8.74V
- With 100mm ring, 0.30A, 8.6V

100mm Driver:
- With 70mm ring, 0.31A, 8.76V
- With 100mm ring, 0.31A, 8.62V


I actually measured the current for a pair of 100mm and a pair of 70mm driver, and it give me the sense that the driver output may be different between the two pairs. For the 70mm drivers, one read 0.29A and the other read 0.3A. For the 100mm drivers, one is 0.3A and the other is 0.31A. All drivers looks same from outside though. I can actually feel the LED is brighter when I hookup the 100mm driver to 70mm ring, than using the 70mm driver with the 70mm ring. Also for the reverse, which feel dimmer when 100mm ring connected to 70mm driver when compare with connected to the 100mm driver.

branded
June 19th, 2012, 02:57 PM
Well, I used the "typical" voltage drop for an LED in my analysis above but some, especially BLUE LED's can be higher (Hi-Flux BLUE can be 3 V/LED). I also assumed three LED's in series as another user in this thread said.

But it still appears to be a Voltage regulator as the only thing that changed is the size of the Ring. The Regulator output to the Ring appears to be the same voltage (practically speaking) regardless of Ring size.

It is indeed regulating the input voltage (or as far as I can tell by your measurements it is). I'll do some more research when I actually have them in hand. It's always possible it's operating as a Current regulator but they are essentially the same whereby one holds the voltage contant and varies current depending on load and the other is the opposite whereby it holds the current constant whilst vary the voltage.

@Stupidpig- the rings you have are what color LED's ? (I think I heard that white ring uses BLUE LED's)

StupidPig
June 19th, 2012, 03:46 PM
It is white ring, but I'm not sure it is blue under the coating or not as I didn't want to damage the ring. The driver is pretty sure a constant current one, as the current output stay same for both ring size, only the voltage output changed. The no. of parallel LED strings is different according to the size of ring. If it is a voltage regulator, then the output should be stay same on the voltage for both rings, but more current should be output when using the 100mm ring.

I forgot the no. of strings on the 70mm one (probably 19 strings), but the 100mm one should be 39 strings (117 LED in total, 3 LED + resistor per string).

branded
June 19th, 2012, 04:00 PM
It's hard to tell from your numbers whether it is or not. They (current regulators) are more prevalent when driving LED's but it still could be CV, it's essentially the same thing. There's only a 14mv change in voltage from 70mm to 100mm. The only way to really know is to test them with a fixed load (without the rings), measure the output and current, then with the same setup either double the load or half it so that there's a major change in it's output.
It will then be apparent. As I said, I don't have mine yet so I'm an 'armchair' engineer.......:Banane24:

edit: Just realized that differing color LED's wouldn't work well with a CV regualtor as they have differing forward voltage characteristics. Given that these rings have different colors then the CC regulator has the advantage to adjusting to the differing forward drops of the various colored LED's. So, here i am again reversing. In this particular circumstance, where the rings vary the device LED type too, the CC regulator is the best fit.

I will definitely know by the end of this upcoming weekend.

StupidPig
June 19th, 2012, 04:31 PM
I know it doesn't make sense to use the CC driver here, but this is the fact, not sure why you are so unwilling to believe it. :)

Soundman already take the driver apart, and confirmed the chip used is a CC LED driver, and then my measurement is also proved that. The voltage change with the same driver on 70mm and 100mm ring, is because the current go thru each strings on 100mm is a lot lower than the current thru each string on the 70mm ring, and when the LED running with lower current, their Vf also lower.

branded
June 19th, 2012, 04:59 PM
I know it doesn't make sense to use the CC driver here, but this is the fact, not sure why you are so unwilling to believe it. :)

Soundman already take the driver apart, and confirmed the chip used is a CC LED driver, and then my measurement is also proved that. The voltage change with the same driver on 70mm and 100mm ring, is because the current go thru each strings on 100mm is a lot lower than the current thru each string on the 70mm ring, and when the LED running with lower current, their Vf also lower.

Firstly, I'm not reluctant to believe anything. Just trying to come to a logical conclusion. :Banane25:

I highlighted what you wrote because it's wholly wrong. The way an LED works (or any diode for that matter) is that when they are forward biased they have a fixed voltage across them that "constant". The VF is "not lower" on the 100MM vs. the 70MM for if that were true it would either dim, or simply shut off. The VF is constant, period.

If the current flowing through the LED's on the 100MM are less than the 70MM then they wouldn't have the same, or similar intensity. That's why we regulate and control the inputs to these devices, LOL......

Lastly, all devices designed (chips, etc) for CC can also be configured for CV, So looking up the device type in the MAXIM datasheet means little. You would need the application notes.

I appreciate the readings you made but really, they are too close to call right now but as I said in my last post, I'm definitely thinking CC because only in that configuration can the regulator compensate for different LED types (colors) and differing VF characteristics as well as differing size Rings.

StupidPig
June 19th, 2012, 05:09 PM
Well, I know nothing about the reason behind, I'm not from the EE field, but all I knew from my practical experience is when you lower the current thru the LED, the forward voltage will be dropped too. You can easily see that from any LED datasheet from the current vs. forward voltage graph.

And as I mentioned, I do think the LED are dimmer when the same driver is connected to 100mm ring than when it is connected to the 70mm ring.

branded
June 19th, 2012, 05:21 PM
The FV will drop but you're supposed to stay withing the "sweet spot" where it is relatively constant. All diodes have a forward drop and many times design engineers will rely soley on that drop (because it's predictable) to do various things, such as simply drop a signal voltage by 1, or 2 volts by placing diodes in series with the load, and so on....

Sometimes they are actually used as "voltage references" again because they are prdictable and repeatable. Silicone diodes have a typical drop of 0.6V and Shottkey types typically 0.1 or less depending on device type.

LED's are no different.

I will have plenty of time to play with these things when I get them. I'm not arguing with anyone here, just trying to understand how these things work before I stuff them in the nose of my car, that's all.......

StupidPig
June 19th, 2012, 05:30 PM
I highlighted what you wrote because it's wholly wrong.

The FV will drop but you're supposed to stay withing the "sweet spot" where it is relatively constant.
So it's not wholly wrong, right? ;p

branded
June 19th, 2012, 06:02 PM
No, it is wholly wrong...LOL When you design something whereby you're wanting the device to be predicatable and repeatable in its performance, as in this case, you don't want the device to be outside it's operating range.

When within its operating range the VF will change very minimally as a result of more/less current through the device and for all practical purposes "appear" constant and be irrelevant. I guess this is where practical experience and context come into play.

That's the whole idea to controlling it. If you decrease the current to the point whereby the VF drops appreciably the device will dim or shutoff completely.

You said, without quoting, that the 100MM device should draw LESS current and therefore the VF will be lower with the same "driver"....Nope, you want a larger device, with more LED's, to suck MORE current to maintain the same level of light output that the 70MM has.

The changes in VF will not be consequential in any practical way if it's fully biased on and in the "sweet spot". Light output uniformity is the name of the game with LED's.

Thegelman
June 19th, 2012, 06:12 PM
I'm about to buy some xb led angel eyes wish I could c these in person before I buy

StupidPig
June 19th, 2012, 06:36 PM
No, it is wholly wrong...LOL

You are wrong on saying I'm wrong when I mentioned the Vf dropped when the current dropped. This is nothing related to whether the whole implementation is correct or not.

branded
June 19th, 2012, 06:40 PM
Lol...ENOUGH!
See'ya.....

soundman98
June 19th, 2012, 08:16 PM
and we're all wrong because we're men. it's alright, i've come to grips with it.


ok, so going off what we know-- the control resistor, labeled "R330" should be a 0.33ohm resistor. going off the pin description in the datasheet(link (http://www.maxictech.com/en/UploadFiles/MT7201_rev1.1_EN.pdf))(i couldn't seem to locate any application notes yet..), output current=0.1/R. in this case, 0.1/0.33=0.30A now assuming that the resistor is a 5% tolerance version(considering the usage, i would personally prefer a 1% tolerance version), 5% variance on 0.33 is 0.0165, so you can expect a value of something between 0.32-0.34 ohms.

plugged into the equation, it gives us a expected output range of 0.3125-0.2941 amp's. but that is assuming that all rings use the same set resistor.

which means that stupidpigs readings are correct--assuming that the meter is accurate..

of note-- stupid pig only measured white led rings, so there should be a more apparent difference by measuring a white/blue ring(for all intents and purposes, nearly all white led's are blue led's with a added layer-- remote phosphor tech is the easiest way to see this without tearing a led apart link (http://www.hidplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?42286-led-forward-lighing-and-assorted-ideas&p=436221&viewfull=1#post436221). there are some "non-phosphor white led's"(there is a wikipedia article on them), but they are not as common or as popular as the phosphor-based versions) and a amber,red, green ring.

let me go test my white and amber rings and see what they end up at..

soundman98
June 19th, 2012, 10:23 PM
i'm baaaack...

i tested two 70mm rings, a amber and a white with a single driver--taken from the white one(if needed, i can do the test with the other 2 drivers as well(another white, and the lone yellow surviver), but due to the previous tear-down results, i currently don't see a point to it).

again, my meter quality is suspect(i used 2 meters this time), especially at such low voltage and current levels, but the 2 tests were identical, so any error was at least applied to both tests..

the driver is without a doubt a constant current driver, set up for 0.30A output, and i still firmly believe that the resistance tolerance is what accounts for any small fluctuation in the output current.
the easiest way to test this is to let the led's heat up and lower their Fv, so i did just that, taking note of the readings every 30 seconds for 5 min, and then every minute after that, finally followed by a final ir temp check on both the ring and the driver(placed the gun on top of the component to eliminate external temp readings as much as possible).

white ring:
begin: 9.03v-----0.28A
current held steady at 0.28A throughout the test

30sec: 8.97v
1min: 8.93v
1:30: 8.91v
2min: 8.89v
2:30: 8.89v
3min: 8.85v
3:30: 8.86v(moved my hand near the ring picking up my ir temp gun)
4min: 8.83v
4:30: 8.80v
5min: 8.79v
6min: 8.78v
7min: 8.78v
8min: 8.77v
9min: 8.77v
10min: 8.77v

final temp taken at 12:30. driver @ 104.4 deg F, ring at 110 deg F
allowed the driver to cool to ambient, and started over.

amber ring, same 'white driver'
begin: 6.12v----0.29A

current held steady at 0.29A
30sec: 6.07
1min: 6.02
1:30: 5.98
2min: 5.96
2:30: 5.93

at this point, the current reading started bouncing from 0.29-0.28 through the rest of the test.

3min: 5.92
3:30: 5.91
4min: 5.90
(missed 4:30)
5min: 5.89
6min: 5.88
7min: 5.87
8min: 5.87
9min: 5.87
10min: 5.87

final temp at 12:30-- driver at 101.3 deg F, led ring at 105 deg F.

StupidPig
June 20th, 2012, 12:29 AM
Well, I guess it is wasting time to do more tests for proving the driver is a constant current one. There just a stubborn guy who keep thinking he is right and every other are wrong, no matter how many more prove is provided.

Now, the more interesting part is your driver from the 70mm white ring is also measured at the lower range current (0.28A - 0.29A)..... It still be possible that the one using for larger ring has higher output. May be I should take times to measure also the 100mm and 90mm amber I have.

soundman98
June 20th, 2012, 09:05 PM
Now, the more interesting part is your driver from the 70mm white ring is also measured at the lower range current (0.28A - 0.29A)..... It still be possible that the one using for larger ring has higher output. May be I should take times to measure also the 100mm and 90mm amber I have.

it can't hurt.. i wonder if there is some sort of internal resistance in the control circuit that would account for some extra drop, and push it down to the 0.28-0.29A range..


Sound like you guys are having fun with the XB-ring. Does the XB need to be reinvented?

nothing needs to be reinvented, but it sure is fun figuring out how things work, and what could have been done differently.. sometimes the best way to learn is to break some stuff.

Shimee
June 22nd, 2012, 01:29 AM
I got some 70mm xB amber rings that I will be installing shortly but I wanted to take some pictures before hand. It's a quick littler review of how they look in the daylight.


Close up
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/Shimee/xB%20amber/IMG_5201.jpg

Different angle
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/Shimee/xB%20amber/IMG_5211.jpg

Few feet away
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/Shimee/xB%20amber/IMG_5202.jpg

About 20ft away (internal mounting)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/Shimee/xB%20amber/IMG_5217.jpg

About 20ft away (external mounting)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/Shimee/xB%20amber/IMG_5213.jpg

About 40ft away (internal mounting)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/Shimee/xB%20amber/IMG_5218.jpg

About 40t away (external mounting)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/Shimee/xB%20amber/IMG_5216.jpg





And if you're wondering about the difference between the mounting methods, my issue was that the ring I ordered was too small. I wanted to mount it on the rim at the front of the Mini GG shrouds, which I measured to have a diameter of 70mm. The problem is that TRS reports the OUTSIDE diameter of the xB rings on the store page, so a 70mm ring has an inner diameter of about 60mm which is too small for what I wanted. Instead this ring sits on the lip that is next to the rim and makes things awkward.

While playing around I discovered that the ring is a PERFECT fit on the inside of that rim just in front of the projector.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/Shimee/xB%20amber/IMG_5188.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/Shimee/xB%20amber/IMG_5189.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/Shimee/xB%20amber/IMG_5190.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/Shimee/xB%20amber/IMG_5191.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/Shimee/xB%20amber/IMG_5192.jpg


Here is external mounting
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/Shimee/xB%20amber/IMG_5193.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/Shimee/xB%20amber/IMG_5194.jpg



And a comparison between the two with some light
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/Shimee/xB%20amber/IMG_5198.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/Shimee/xB%20amber/IMG_5199.jpg





I have a little bit of a size constraint so I dunno if I will get away with mounting the ring on the inside. Otherwise I have to grind the lip off to be able to mount the ring normally at the front of the shroud.

JL-KA
June 22nd, 2012, 09:19 AM
Looks good but it'd be a shame to lose all that brightness.

branded
June 22nd, 2012, 09:36 AM
Speaking of losing brightness, I too have a 70mm amber (also disapointed that it's too small to mount on the end of the Mini) and did some tests on it using an external power supply, with and without the external current regulator.

I found this ring to be underdriven and not achieving its full potential light intensity. Using the variable power supply I found that the thresold for the amber LED's is 6V (3 * 2V FV for the LED's) and at the time it hits this thresold the ring's drawing about 500ma, instead of the 300ma the external regulator sources.

The thresold can be found by slowly raising the output of the power supply until the voltage levels off (flattens) and from this point out any small change in voltage causes a large change in current consumption, indicating the LED's are fully in their VF range.

At 500ma it's about 20% brighter. Before anyone gets nervous about overdriving the LED's this breaks down to about 6.5ma/LED branch (3 LED's/branch and about 80 branched circuits).

I found similar to be true for my 80mm ring, 20% brighter, thresold at 9V, 500ma which is VF at 3V times 3 LED's/branch.....
The supplied driver sources only 300ma, not enough to cross the thresold of the LED's.

StupidPig
June 22nd, 2012, 02:03 PM
At 500ma it's about 20% brighter. Before anyone gets nervous about overdriving the LED's this breaks down to about 6.5ma/LED branch (3 LED's/branch and about 80 branched circuits).

Wondering how your 6.5mA per branch come from..... How can the 70mm ring consists of 80 x 3 = 240 LED?

branded
June 22nd, 2012, 02:32 PM
Well, turn the ring over and it tells you how many LED's. The 70mm says 81 LED (you can see 3 leds/branch) and the 80mm on the back says 93 LED's, again you can see 3 LED's/Branch. Or you can just sit there and count them from the front as I did at first, LOL.......500ma/81 LED branches = 6.2ma/"LED" branch......

I'm not sure it's worth the effort to mess with the 80MM white because it's very bright as is and running it up to 500ma makes it that much more blinding. It also of course runs hotter (4.5 watts vs. 2.7 watts at 300ma).

The amber I'm definitely going to change to 500ma. The difference is night/day and frankly, the first time I plugged it in I wasn't impressed. It looked great in the garage but not so great in sunlight. I have photo's of the difference but I will post them to the other thread in this forum in the Marketplace.....

@shimee, Involving mounting the XB to the Mini. I just sanded off the stepped ridge on the end so that it's all flush now. I used a bench mounted 5" disk sander.

P.S. You can see I removed the chrome from the shrouds......

14528
14529
14530

StupidPig
June 22nd, 2012, 03:18 PM
Something is wrong with you calculation. 81 LED doesn't means 81 strings(branches). With 3 LED per string, there are only 27 strings of LED, at 500mA, ideally each string will be at 18.51mA. All LED in the same serial string will be running at same current, so each LED is running at 18.51mA too, not 6.2mA/LED.

Well, before recommending this to others, please be careful on driving the LED on XB ring to whatever max current you had found. Remember the XB ring is supposed to be (or at least it's how most peoples will do) mounted near the projector. When the ambient temperature increased, the maximum allowed current will also be decreased. What you found to be the max which you found during your test at room temperature will no longer be safe for 80 degC environment.

branded
June 22nd, 2012, 03:30 PM
Something is wrong with you calculation. 81 LED doesn't means 81 strings(branches). With 3 LED per string, there are only 27 strings of LED, at 500mA, ideally each string will be at 18.51mA. All LED in the same serial string will be running at same current, so each LED is running at 18.51mA too, not 6.2mA/LED.

Well, before recommending this to others, please be careful on driving the LED on XB ring to whatever max current you had found. Remember the XB ring is supposed to be (or at least it's how most peoples will do) mounted near the projector. When the ambient temperature increased, the maximum allowed current will also be decreased. What you found to be the max which you found during your test at room temperature will no longer be safe for 80 degC environment.

@Stupid....Each device in the ring has 3 LED's integral to that device connected in series, just like 5050's and other similar devices, and there are 81 of these devices, each device is connected in parallel on these rings for a grand total of 81 device in parallel.

Each device contains 3 LED's within the single package. If you have an amber ring and you look at it when dimly lit with a magnifier you can see the LED's through the clear portion of the lense in the ring. It's impossible to see with a white ring because it's diffused.

You are however correct about the temperature and that's why I say leave the white alone as the power dissipation will be higher.

I'm not very good at macro photography so I cannot show a photo.

The math is completely correct. It is, *what it is*....LOL

StupidPig
June 22nd, 2012, 03:50 PM
Well, I doubt that's true, unless you are talking about there are 3 dies on each of those tiny LED which connected in parallel. When the label stated 81 LED, I would assume it is really 81 LED. I don't have any XB ring on hand at the moment, but I'm sure I will take a look tonight, and I'll apologize if that's true. Just wondering, how can you tell even you are able to saw three dies on that tiny LED, they are connected in parallel? Did you have an electronic microscope?

branded
June 22nd, 2012, 04:39 PM
I looked with a magnifying glass but it doesn't really matter, really.....

It doesn't matter if there are one, two, or three led's /string. What matters is that each device crosses a thresold at 6V whereby it does not allow the voltage input to (the ring) increase any further without a very large increase in current. That's how LED's are biased. They, like all diodes, have a predictable VF, in this case it's at 6V; that could be 1 LED (never heard of a single device with a VF of 6V though), it can be 2 LED's (each with a 3V FV), or as I think/thought I saw, 3 LED's (each would be 2V FV).

One, 2, 3 is irrelevant. The thresold whereby the ring will not allow further increases in voltage applied but still shows increasing intensity (and current) for very small increases in applied voltage is the operating range of the LED's, regardless of how many LED's /branch.

See below.....these are equavelent. One shows 2/LED's in series, and the other 3/LED's in series....doesn't matter.

14531

soundman98
June 22nd, 2012, 05:47 PM
did you do any extended run time temperature tests at those higher current levels? considering these are likely no-name chinese led's, i'm not so sure on how hot they can get before thermal damage-- as i stated in the other thread, my 2 rings leveled off at 110 and 105 deg F.. though i've been meaning to run my set of rings till they break(to try to locate the max of everything), so if you don't do it first, i'll get to it later. then after i destroy them electrically, i intend to tear off the protective silicone and meter out every one of the traces.

gearbox
June 22nd, 2012, 05:58 PM
300ma generates quite a bit of heat. maybe each led draws only a small amount, but remember they are connected to the same board and the heat buildup will have nowhere to go. making it worse is they are mounted to the projector, which is at least 100F or higher already at the lens.

branded
June 22nd, 2012, 06:23 PM
Yes, I did some thermal measurements. The 80MM ring runs about 130~150F at 500ma. That's not too bad IMO and I'm really not concerned with the LED's but rather the substrate and encapsulation of the assembly itself.
It appears to handle the heat in the short term ( I cooked mine for 8+ hours under an aluminum bowl). I started out at 450ma but as time went on that increased to 500ma.

I did not have the supply set for CC though so it could get all the current it wanted.

The Amber ring is 70mm and crosses the thresold at 6V. It goes to 500ma, or very close to it soon after crossing the threshold. The temperature on the back surface of this ring remains between 120F and 130F and I have no problem with increasing the current to 500ma as this one's clearly under driven.

I already have ordered parts from Mouser to make a 500ma CC regualtor for the Amber's. Going to use LM3405.

Question: Am I going to be banned tonight if SuperPig doesn't find 3 LED's when he gets home? I see 4 segments now...Must be my old tired eyes. It's a biatch getting OLLLLLLLLLD, but never forget to smile!

Oh, I edited this for Super.....

14534

branded
June 22nd, 2012, 06:55 PM
Actually (the calculated dissipation) the wattage at 300ma is only 1.8 watt. In the grand scheme of things, so to speak, given the size of this ring and its surface area IMO that's nada......

However, you are absolutely correct in asserting the notion that one needs to always be carefull when making modifications to OEM products.

soundman98
June 22nd, 2012, 07:55 PM
agreed-- the amount of heat created by the small led dies in this iteration of ring is pretty small-- the back layer of the pcb (visible in branded's pic of the led number above), is still very well covered in copper, so heat dissipation is still quite good.


Question: Am I going to be banned tonight if SuperPig doesn't find 3 LED's when he gets home? I see 4 segments now...Must be my old tired eyes. It's a biatch getting OLLLLLLLLLD, but never forget to smile!

that's why i've made a decision not to get old. too many problems with it. (people tell me i look young, so it must be working!)

it takes a decent amount to get banned(there are no comedy bans here). but by that time, you will have had plenty of warning to see it coming. just keep the discussion civil and you won't have a problem.



i believe they use silicone to 'dome' the tops of the boards-- that should be the same practice they use in high power led's-- it will force the heat to the back plate to get wicked away.
130-150 doesn't sound too bad for that drive current.. i've got a couple variable cc boards i've been meaning to play with..
oh, and i believe this board has at least 3 trace layers(at least one in the middle of the board), so it might be hard to see all of the details right off the bat-- i also want to separate it layer by layer to see what other secrets are hiding in there.


edit-- i'm goign to merge this with to the product page thread-- this is all really the same discussion, and i'd like to see much of it in the same place to try to keep some order to it.

branded
June 22nd, 2012, 08:02 PM
agreed-- oh, and i believe this board has at least 3 trace layers(at least one in the middle of the board), so it might be hard to see all of the details right off the bat-- i also want to separate it layer by layer to see what other secrets are hiding in there.

Like what? I'm speculating (I hope) that the designer used equalization resistors somewhere is this design, else there's prolly lots of 'hogging' going on from branch to branch......

soundman98
June 22nd, 2012, 08:24 PM
really just expecting multiple copper traces below the surface. i don't think COB boards typically use resistors to balance out the strings, so i am not expecting to find them here either. i think there is definitely some power hogs once these start heating up and certain strings show their true specs, but there really isn't a easy way to figure out which ones those are until a failure

gearbox
June 22nd, 2012, 09:04 PM
ah okay 2w shouldnt be a big deal, not much heat at all.

branded
June 22nd, 2012, 09:23 PM
Some comparison photos....

OEM 70mm Amber/300ma............................ driven at 500ma

14538............ 1453914540


White 80mm stock/300ma (on right) and driven at 500ma on left

14541

StupidPig
June 23rd, 2012, 01:48 AM
Sorry, not trying to against another member here, but I just don't think spreading misleading information is the right thing to do, even in internet forum.

This is how the LED series looks like on a XM Amber ring.

14544

The picture showing one series, which you can clearly see there are three LED connected in serial. The one I'm looking at is a 90mm ring, which consists of 105 such LED in total, in 35 parallel strings. Yes, I counted it manually. The back side of the ring also labeled the no. of LED as 105.

14545

Looking form the top side for each LED, there are three different parts. However, even there are three parts for each LED, there is only one die. This is how it looks when I power the ring at 60mA, which just barely light up the LED. I tried my best to see whether I can found any prove on the three LED dies connected in parallel within each LED, but be honest, I don't think that's true.

14546

I don't have any 70mm Amber XB ring with me, so all I can do is assuming it is designed in the exact same way as 90mm XB ring. According to member branded, the back side of the ring is labeled as 81 LED, which means there are 81 LED. With 3 LED in serial for each string, there are 27 such LED strings. Assuming the original driver is a constant current driver outputting at 300mA, each LED string will be receiving 11.1mA. As LED in the same serial will be running at the same current as the string, so each LED is running at 11.1mA. When increasing the supply current to 500mA, with the same calculation, each LED will be running at 18.51mA, certainly not 6.2mA for each LED as claimed by member branded.

branded
June 23rd, 2012, 09:54 AM
Well, I certainly am not above being corrected if/when I'm wrong. This is a discussion on the internet wholly based on empirical knowledge and analysis from you, me, and anyone else that chooses to particpate. There's no such thing as putting "wrong information" out on the internet as it was simply my best guess. Yes I was wrong but it matters not to anyone unless they're off on a trek to clone these devices.

I do assert though that I am correct on more details than the opposite. The thresolds are still true. The power I calculated will be higher than I stated but when all's said and done what matters is whether or not it can safely dissipate the heat.

So let's see, my White ring's 93 LED/ 3= 31 branches....So at 300ma that's 9.7ma/branch, powers's about 2.6 Watts

My amber is 81 LED's, 81 LED's/3= 27 branches...........So at 300ma that's 11.1ma/branch, power's about 1.7 Watts

At 500ma (VF 9V for white, VF 6V for Amber)

White ring's power = 9 * 500ma= 4.5W

Amber ring's power = 6 * 500ma= 3W

All corrected based on your input. Thanks

So I've included this corrected simplified functional showing what we believe to be so at this time.....It shows exactly what you've found, as well as what I and Soundman has found....

edit: As an aside I was thinking too bad they didn't bring out the control (PWM input) from the regulator. It would've been nice to be able to shut these things down for switchback and so forth without having to use relays to switch the power leads on/off........JMO

14548

08srt8
June 27th, 2012, 09:24 AM
does anyone have the EXACT width of these rings? im assuming by the pictures that theyre all the same width. i just need to see if having custom made rings is worth it/possible for my application. im measuring the shroud diffuser rings to be able to accommodate 6mm wide rings and it seems to need a 97.5mm ring...

SnakeDoctor
June 30th, 2012, 08:31 PM
Couple shots from a recent retro


http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h117/jedi_2006/2-58.jpg

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h117/jedi_2006/3-36.jpg

redcompg
June 30th, 2012, 08:40 PM
Wow!

08srt8
June 30th, 2012, 08:44 PM
insane. just...insane.

SnakeDoctor
June 30th, 2012, 08:54 PM
Just got 1 more

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h117/jedi_2006/4-23.jpg

gold94corolla
June 30th, 2012, 09:48 PM
Very sick, I really love amber lights on black! Any shots from farther back?

apkarian100
June 30th, 2012, 10:28 PM
White xBs on a 07 WRX:

https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/182173_387800064602903_1243466298_n.jpg

bosscat
July 1st, 2012, 05:32 AM
Damn, that looks clean. We need a thread dedicated to XB rings installed!

gold94corolla
July 1st, 2012, 11:11 AM
Damn, that looks clean. We need a thread dedicated to XB rings installed!
I think that's what this thread is now.

SnakeDoctor
July 1st, 2012, 12:17 PM
It was until the technical jargon train wreck, lol.

sorcio91
July 4th, 2012, 02:17 PM
i have the panamera shroud.
can i swap my ccfl with this new halo ring?
now i have a 120mm ccfl....

any picture of this led ring with the panamera shroud?


thank you!
(sorry for my bad english i'm italian, only pizza pasta e mafia :P )

branded
July 4th, 2012, 05:29 PM
It was until the technical jargon train wreck, lol.

Sorry, but the conversation may go that way again.... That's what makes this interesting!!!!!

I have in fact found a way to safely run my 80mm white XB at 520ma and achieved about 25% more output in direct daylight......
It's worth discussing IMO.......

I have also designed a circuit (thanks soundman for planting the 'seed') to turn of the white XB when the Amber is flashing (signal) and to inhibit the DRL (white ring) when the Headlights are on low beam......

Sorry, no cool pix yet... Stay tuned!

:banane58:

Sean Lezner
July 4th, 2012, 06:19 PM
Sorry, but the conversation may go that way again.... That's what makes this interesting!!!!!

I have in fact found a way to safely run my 80mm white XB at 520ma and achieved about 25% more output in direct daylight......
It's worth discussing IMO.......

I have also designed a circuit (thanks soundman for planting the 'seed') to turn of the white XB when the Amber is flashing (signal) and to inhibit the DRL (white ring) when the Headlights are on low beam......

Sorry, no cool pix yet... Stay tuned!

:banane58:

That actually sounds awesome that you were able to make an already incredibly bright product even brighter lol. I wonder how detrimental it is to their overall lifespan by doing that?

branded
July 4th, 2012, 06:56 PM
Oh no....I didn't want to turn this thread around, LOL....what I did was to add a heat sink to the backside of the ring (aluminum plate with thickness of .008"). I needed a way to couple/attach a smaller ring (60mm) to the larger ring anyway. I assembled it using JB weld. I chose a very light weight guage aluminum because I didn't want to appreciably add to the weight hanging on the nose of the shroud.

The addition of the aluminum allows the ring to run at 500ma+ which is the current it should be running at anyway (to forward bias the LED's into their operating range). The Ring was under-driven at 300ma, possibly derated because of the possibilty of thermal runaway at the higher current (a compromise to be safe).

Mine runs at a cool 125*F (ambient at 95*F) with the heatsink and runs at the currect it should...I don't want to get into how I know what the current *is supposed to be*.
If you're really interested go way back in this thread and you'll find out.......

My Amber ring also was way underdriven. It now runs at approximately 570 ma and since it's attached to the same hunk of metal it also never goes above 125*F.....this is moot point for my Amber because it is only active (ON) during Signalling and the White ring's inhibited for the entire duration of the Signalling so it gets a periodic cool down that way also. Since it's flashing I added a softstart circuitry to its driver.

How does it affect the longetivty of the ring? This is only my opinion but I think it's negligable in the overall lifespan for they are within their "normal" operating range......

14713
14715147161471714714
JMO
Bob T.

soundman98
July 4th, 2012, 07:32 PM
Sorry, but the conversation may go that way again.... That's what makes this interesting!!!!!
exactly!


I have also designed a circuit (thanks soundman for planting the 'seed') to turn of the white XB when the Amber is flashing (signal) and to inhibit the DRL (white ring) when the Headlights are on low beam...... no problem, it's just a returned favor ;) i'm surprised you used a 556 in it, as i would have just used some diodes, resistors, capacitors and relays, but you know what they say about skinning a cat..

are you planning on re-doing the original drivers to be constant current at 500mA, or are you planning on using a different circuit?


possibly derated because of the possibilty of thermal runaway at the higher current (a compromise to be safe).

very possibly, though it is also very possible that it was also a cost-cutting measure-- to only need to stock and track a single 30mA driver is a whole lot cheaper then tracking and stocking a different model for every size ring. all speculation in either case..


I wonder how detrimental it is to their overall lifespan by doing that?

considering that he's only hitting 125F, i don't think it should be affecting it too much. it's definitely not any better for them, but considering most led's have a max junction temp of 300deg, it's doing alright considering the extra amount of light it outputs.

branded
July 4th, 2012, 08:00 PM
@Soundman-
Wish I knew how to use that darned multi-Quote, LOL.....

I used a 556 because I wanted to minimize the wiring into the HL. I only needed to bring into the light +12V (in key position RUN) which is available nearby in the engine compartment. I'm using the Retrigger configuration of the 556 to integrate (over time) the Signal Light input to inhibit the white ring when the signal light is on....

I couldn't see any other way to do it in this car as there's no way to actually detect when the Signal's on unless you get into the passenger compartment.

This device sits nicely in the HL and does the detection/switching automatically without anything more than the Sig Light input and 12v supply.....

It also allows me to easily inhibit the DRL (white ring) when the Low beam is on...


I already did the drivers. I did not try to pick away at the potting on the originals (too lazy, lol). The outputs are sort of oddball (520ma and 570ma) because I used resistors for the sense that I already had on hand.

This place where I live is the Sahara desert when it comes to getting components....Radio Shlock is *it* here in Florida/Tampa area......They are a shadow of their former self and even then they were far from being *the* source for components.

I still have accounts with Mouser, digi, Avnet, newark, and some others I can't remember anymore but i don't like to have to wait.

Yes, cost is surely the top compromise they made ......They chose the smallest value of current that 'fits all' and results in little risk of potential product complaints in the future.....

I'm on hold not until I run out my options on my gold plating idea.....I have one sacrifical HL I can experiment on, else I probably would have been done by now......

TIA
Bob T.

Adam
July 5th, 2012, 01:20 AM
Actually (the calculated dissipation) the wattage at 300ma is only 1.8 watt. In the grand scheme of things, so to speak, given the size of this ring and its surface area IMO that's nada......

However, you are absolutely correct in asserting the notion that one needs to always be carefull when making modifications to OEM products.

I realize heat's a killer for LEDs, but are you guys saying heat is more dangerous when overdriving than the actual boost in current? I know the voltage is unchanged, or is it that the increased current really only kills LEDs indirectly with heat?

branded
July 5th, 2012, 10:07 AM
^^^ I'm not sure exactly what you're asking so I'll do my best here to answer what I think you want to know....

In this particular situation we are not overdriving the LED's but rather operating them in their intended range, *however*, because of the board density (lots of LED's over a small area) the LED's can get very hot (the board's unable to remove the heat efficiently because of physical size constraints, layers of copper and so on).

There's a phenomena that many active electronic components suffer from and that is termed "thermal runaway". It's sort of a runaway condition that's catostropic when it occurs and usually results in the component failing.

In the case of an LED, once the LED reaches a certain critical temperature its internal resistance can lower thereby drawing more current and so it gets hotter still and draws more current, and so on until its toasted......In the case of our ring where they are all in parallel it might appear as a one, or a few LED's not illuminating. Over time it probably will get worse.

So in order to protect against this runaway condition you must control the current through the device but you must also make sure you're operating well in the safe temperature range of the device *as it is in its intended or current environment*, meaning mounted to a board with the abilty to cast off the heat.

In this case the board geometry is a 'given' (we're not designing this thing from ground up) and so to prevent the condition above when increasing the current through the device we can add supplemental cooling in the form of a heatsink....

I know it's a longish explanation but I think it answers your question.

TRSMatt
July 5th, 2012, 10:36 AM
hmm aluminum based XB LED rings, yes. I like that

Adam
July 5th, 2012, 12:41 PM
^^^ I'm not sure exactly what you're asking so I'll do my best here to answer what I think you want to know....

In this particular situation we are not overdriving the LED's but rather operating them in their intended range, *however*, because of the board density (lots of LED's over a small area) the LED's can get very hot (the board's unable to remove the heat efficiently because of physical size constraints, layers of copper and so on).

There's a phenomena that many active electronic components suffer from and that is termed "thermal runaway". It's sort of a runaway condition that's catostropic when it occurs and usually results in the component failing.

In the case of an LED, once the LED reaches a certain critical temperature its internal resistance can lower thereby drawing more current and so it gets hotter still and draws more current, and so on until its toasted......In the case of our ring where they are all in parallel it might appear as a one, or a few LED's not illuminating. Over time it probably will get worse.

So in order to protect against this runaway condition you must control the current through the device but you must also make sure you're operating well in the safe temperature range of the device *as it is in its intended or current environment*, meaning mounted to a board with the abilty to cast off the heat.

In this case the board geometry is a 'given' (we're not designing this thing from ground up) and so to prevent the condition above when increasing the current through the device we can add supplemental cooling in the form of a heatsink....

I know it's a longish explanation but I think it answers your question.

I do get that and I know that's what drivers are for, but hypothetically if you could run these at 800mA without them getting too hot somehow, would the huge jump in current not somehow destroy them too? Or is the only reason the boosted current dangerous solely because of the heat generated that leads to the thermal runaway?

branded
July 5th, 2012, 02:27 PM
^^^ In that case then yes, IMO it would be the heat that would destroy the PN junction of the LED. It's the heat that is generated as a result of passing too much current through the junction that's going to open it up.....just like a fuse.
It wouldn't be able to handle it.

By the way, this is true of any PN junction in any current controlled device such as small diodes, rectifiers, transistors and so on. You must limit the current that passes through the junction (within spec) else it becomes a fuse (sometimes they can short too)......

One more thing....You can increase the current, theoretically, by an infinite amount if you super-cool the device (in theory)....Not practical in the real world though. Other things come into play such as the plastics, and so on but Super Conductors are based on this theory......and there's much excitement about a new generation of "High temperature" Super-Conductors that exhibit very low resistance at (I think if I remember correctly) about 0* C.....
That's still cold in my book!!!

AndrewHirigoyen
July 5th, 2012, 03:58 PM
Although I know a lot about HID's LED's and Electricity in general, you guys jotting down technical data really gives me a headache. A good one, mainly from over thinking. I think I am starting to grasp most of the principles of what you're saying. So, thanks for the information. This has turned into a really informative and, cool thread. I like the pictures too.

soundman98
July 5th, 2012, 06:02 PM
^good to hear! you better grab a chair and a seatbelt for the last part of my post!


@Soundman-
Wish I knew how to use that darned multi-Quote, LOL.....

now i'm just showing off ;)

click the a/A button in the top left, just above the area where you type the reply-- it will show quoted messages like this:

and then add a / after the first bracket to complete the quote-- like this minus the period(in there to throw off the forum software so it doesn't quote this) [./quote] you really only need the [.quote] and [./quote] lines to reference any specific line, but the '=branded' part is what it will say in the "originally posted by" area of the quote.

to quote more then one post, there is a speech box right next to the "reply with quote" button-- click on that and it will put a checkmark over it-- any post that is checked will show up in the reply if you click "reply with quote" or "go advanced" down on the bottom..

see? computer code isn't so hard :lol:

[QUOTE=TRSMatt;494748]hmm aluminum based XB LED rings, yes. I like that

yum mcpcb flavor!!


^^^ In that case then yes, IMO it would be the heat that would destroy the PN junction of the LED. It's the heat that is generated as a result of passing too much current through the junction that's going to open it up.....just like a fuse.
It wouldn't be able to handle it.

By the way, this is true of any PN junction in any current controlled device such as small diodes, rectifiers, transistors and so on. You must limit the current that passes through the junction (within spec) else it becomes a fuse (sometimes they can short too)......

bringing up the theoretical inputs reminded me of this very interesting white paper on the subject of overdriving led's:
http://www.digikey.tw/tw/en/techzone/lighting/resources/articles/pulsed-over-current-driving-of-xlamp-leds.html

o (http://www.digikey.tw/tw/en/techzone/lighting/resources/articles/pulsed-over-current-driving-of-xlamp-leds.html)f course that paper specifically references cree high power led's only, so i don't know how well the same limits apply to other brands, or led form factors. though the degradation of the internal conductors is a very real failure point regardless of led type.

and of course after referencing that white paper, it reminds me of the crazies over at candlepowerforums and their pulsed overcurrent tests that drove a ssc led to 10A:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?89607-White-LED-lumen-testing

the crazy starts here:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?89607-White-LED-lumen-testing&p=3098815&viewfull=1#post3098815

yes, this does get away from the rings that the thread is really for, but i'm mainly posting these here for the principles behind these tests..

branded
July 5th, 2012, 07:56 PM
^^^ thanks, I'll try that multi-quote later....The papers are good reading for later but probably more than I want to know about LED modes of failure, LOL....I know heat's BAD in electronics (unless of course you're intentionally creating/controlling it as in an oven used in instrumentation)......

I've got a video of my recent endevours.....My 'switchback' control of my XB Angel Eyes I'm happy with so it's time to move on....
I'll post another when i finally get one of these lights back together and then finally when reinstalled to the vehicle.


http://youtu.be/UmIRyE7D7N0

TIA
Bob T.

Sean Lezner
July 5th, 2012, 08:32 PM
@Branded: While that looks very appealing, I'm not willing to do all that work just for switchbacks lol.

branded
July 5th, 2012, 08:38 PM
@Branded: While that looks very appealing, I'm not willing to do all that work just for switchbacks lol.

Hey, whatever floats your boat, LOL.....This is NOT a DIY...One man's "work" is anothers passtime and hobby.....

To everyone else I would think that the "work" will be taken up by some enterprising vendor......
if anyone's interested.....

Sean Lezner
July 6th, 2012, 04:14 AM
Hey, whatever floats your boat, LOL.....This is NOT a DIY...One man's "work" is anothers passtime and hobby.....

To everyone else I would think that the "work" will be taken up by some enterprising vendor......
if anyone's interested.....

Yeah no doubt. It would definitely be an interesting idea if TRS or someone picked up on it as you mentioned but the price for the product would probably double lol.

branded
July 6th, 2012, 09:13 AM
Yeah no doubt. It would definitely be an interesting idea if TRS or someone picked up on it as you mentioned but the price for the product would probably double lol.

Adding a ring of aluminum (likely the manufacturer would do this) and changing the drivers would double the price?........
I'd bet if one wanted to search Alibaba one could find off the shelf drivers from China that would work fine, or just ask the current supplier to order the same driver from the factory with an output to match the ring.....it only involves one resistor value change.
I don't see any enormous increase in pricing at all.

Beyond that, the 'switchback' scheme is plug'n play *IF* my design were available to you and others, but alas...it is not.
I designed it *for myself*, in less than 15 minutes, LOL.....Build time? One half hour. There are other ways to do it involving more time and work.
So unless you're capable of designing your own I would agree that it's 'too much work' to do the switching......

14736

soundman98
July 6th, 2012, 03:23 PM
you say 500mA right?

constant current drivers are all over the place.. here's a few.

luxdrive 500mA driver (http://www.ledsupply.com/03021-d-i-500.php)

sob 500 (http://theledguy.chainreactionweb.com/product_info.php?cPath=48_49_61&products_id=1005)

3A variable cv/cc driver ("http://www.ebay.com/itm/7-35V-to-1-25-30V-0-3A-15W-Power-Supply-Module-LED-Driver-CC-CV-Charger-/150850652650?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item231f6649ea)

potted version ("http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-7-35V-to-1-25-30V-15W-LED-Driver-CC-CV-Step-down-Power-Supply-Module-/160831404323?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25724c7923#ht_4414wt_1270)

different version ("http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-adjustable-converter-LED-driver-Control-current-CC-control-voltage-CV-/180838463305?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a1acff749)..

how many more do you need? :lol:

branded
July 6th, 2012, 04:46 PM
Yeah, if I wasn't in such a rush to finish I might have gone looking for them myself...Was easy enough to do myself though. New drivers wouldn't double the cost anyway.....

Shame someone isn't providing some punched aluminum backing that would allow a user to couple two rings together (popular sizes) and double up as a heatsink as well...

Just say'n <shrug>, LOL

Adam
July 7th, 2012, 01:06 AM
^^^ In that case then yes, IMO it would be the heat that would destroy the PN junction of the LED. It's the heat that is generated as a result of passing too much current through the junction that's going to open it up.....just like a fuse.
It wouldn't be able to handle it.

By the way, this is true of any PN junction in any current controlled device such as small diodes, rectifiers, transistors and so on. You must limit the current that passes through the junction (within spec) else it becomes a fuse (sometimes they can short too)......

One more thing....You can increase the current, theoretically, by an infinite amount if you super-cool the device (in theory)....Not practical in the real world though. Other things come into play such as the plastics, and so on but Super Conductors are based on this theory......and there's much excitement about a new generation of "High temperature" Super-Conductors that exhibit very low resistance at (I think if I remember correctly) about 0* C.....
That's still cold in my book!!!

Thanks for the education haha I love this forum. All you guys are great.

Nice video too, that's really awesome. However I'm bummed that as soon as I've convinced myself that halos are too ricey, you pull this off and make me want them for signals. I might have to steal your circuit though and do a switchback LED strip on the next car!

apkarian100
July 8th, 2012, 03:58 PM
xBs on a 2008 Subaru LGT:

https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/181108_391560517560191_1463154530_n.jpg

https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/600420_391560397560203_154392378_n.jpg

jwlj
July 8th, 2012, 03:58 PM
FlyRyde, yeah you can scrape the phosphor coating off the face to kill the light in certain areas

straight bars would be badass, straight bars that would remain flexible even more badass!



Did I smelled something being cook? :)


hm perhaps ;)



If there is any remote chance of a straight version coming I will wait on the retro.
These will be perfect for what I want to do!

jwlj
July 8th, 2012, 04:00 PM
hey sorry bro, ive been doing this for a while for my canada clients(firing them backwards) it works great as drl's,. you will be fine, especially if your using a open projector were the lens can catch the light.

heres the ambers behind G37 -

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h117/jedi_2006/1-63.jpg

This is with out a shroud?
I love the look.

SnakeDoctor
July 8th, 2012, 06:33 PM
This is with out a shroud?
I love the look.

No sir, this is 100mm amber behind G37-R

jwlj
July 9th, 2012, 06:21 AM
That is VERY nice.
You use the amber as your Parking Light / Turn Signal?

redcompg
July 12th, 2012, 12:51 AM
Does anybody happen to have any pictures of the amber led and projector both turned on?

SCIENCEEE
July 13th, 2012, 10:02 AM
Redcompg, I do. I'll post pictures later. On my phone atm.

where can I get a 500ma driver for my xbs? Are they cheap?

branded
July 13th, 2012, 10:13 AM
Redcompg, I do. I'll post pictures later. On my phone atm.

where can I get a 500ma driver for my xbs? Are they cheap?

Search on the terms driver and buck on ebay.....You'll find lots of them (adjustable)........

SCIENCEEE
July 13th, 2012, 04:40 PM
Would these work? Forgive the noobness, I know very little about LED's.

http://www.ledsupply.com/02009-sho.php

I (http://www.ledsupply.com/02009-sho.php)'m guessing no because of the low input voltage, but just wanted to check.

branded
July 13th, 2012, 05:05 PM
Would these work? Forgive the noobness, I know very little about LED's.

'm guessing no because of the low input voltage, but just wanted to check.

It doesn't look like they would as they appear to be designed for 3VDC max input (We have 14vdc at the input)...Also, I noticed the first page says 500ma but the data sheet says 350, 400, for two differing chip types....
Output Current, 2009A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 350mA
1
Output Current, 2009-HI. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 400mA
1

soundman98
July 13th, 2012, 08:02 PM
right lineup, wrong product ;)

you'll want to look at luxdrive's buck puck lineup.

this one has pins and requires the harness in the second link:
http://www.ledsupply.com/03021-d-i-500.php

normal harness:
http://www.ledsupply.com/03021he.php

harness with dimming:
http://www.ledsupply.com/03021hep.php

there is also ones with wires coming out of them:
http://www.ledsupply.com/03023-d-e-500p.php

they do have a non dimming one as well, but i imagine that could be detrimental to your eyes in some cases ;)

branded
July 13th, 2012, 08:28 PM
Those are nice and they have the available interface cable and such but they are a bit pricey compared to the ones sold on ebay....If you've got 4 rings then you need 4 BuckPucks and 4 cables......That's around $80.....
That's compared to $5 for each ebay type ($20).
They only need some shrink over the top of the assembly (I think).....

soundman98
July 13th, 2012, 08:39 PM
yes, but these are fixed at 500mA output. it's just plug-n-go. no current adjustment to need to set.. for someone not as familiar to leds as you or me, i think the cost premium is justifiable for the possible user error that it eliminates.

but for arguments sake, here is the one branded is talking about-- there are more then once place selling these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-Converter-Constant-Current-3A-Voltage-2-30V-LED-Driver-Battery-Charger-LM2596-/270955376640?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1632f000#ht_2390wt_1037

(http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-Converter-Constant-Current-Voltage-1-25-30V-LED-Driver-Battery-Charger-/261053386362?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc7fe8e7a#ht_2848wt_1270)there is also a battery charger version with a 3rd blue adjuster(pot) at the top, but for led's, is not needed.

Sean Lezner
July 14th, 2012, 10:26 AM
I wish the Morimoto XB LED's came in a yellow color. I think that would be a sweet and unique halo color lol.

soundman98
July 14th, 2012, 10:51 AM
a yellow off color with yellow light? pretty easy to do-- just get some of that ricer-yellow window tint and cover the rings.

Sean Lezner
July 14th, 2012, 02:13 PM
a yellow off color with yellow light? pretty easy to do-- just get some of that ricer-yellow window tint and cover the rings.

While that method sounds intriguing, I would rather not go about it half-assed. I just thought it would be cool if they carried yellow emitting XB Halo's that aren't too far off from the Amber they offer.

zreed
July 14th, 2012, 04:27 PM
I love mine!! just got them installed 2 days ago, BRIGHT BRIGHT BRIGHT! :Banane36:
14882

Sean Lezner
July 14th, 2012, 06:11 PM
I love mine!! just got them installed 2 days ago, BRIGHT BRIGHT BRIGHT! :Banane36:

Let's see some output shots of those MH1 V5's lol. Please. lol

redcompg
July 14th, 2012, 08:54 PM
While that method sounds intriguing, I would rather not go about it half-assed. I just thought it would be cool if they carried yellow emitting XB Halo's that aren't too far off from the Amber they offer.

or get a can or krylons yellow stain glass spray from micheals and get to work

http://www.krylon.com/products/stained_glass_color/

Sean Lezner
July 15th, 2012, 10:36 AM
or get a can or krylons yellow stain glass spray from micheals and get to work

http://www.krylon.com/products/stained_glass_color/

That could work but I would still prefer yellow emitting LED's.

soundman98
July 15th, 2012, 12:05 PM
that's what the amber rings are.. or maybe i'm not understanding what you're looking for?

gold94corolla
July 15th, 2012, 12:31 PM
I suppose he wants a yellow color, not an orange color.

Sean Lezner
July 15th, 2012, 04:14 PM
that's what the amber rings are.. or maybe i'm not understanding what you're looking for?

I'm not looking for an Amber color but both Yellow and Amber are both very similar colors.

branded
July 15th, 2012, 07:44 PM
Umm, I have Yellow LED's on my Golf Cart, that were advertised as AMBER when I ordered them!! Believe me, they're not close to what I consider Amber at all...... IMO

Amber is, and should be way more orange IMO...

lockdown36
July 21st, 2012, 08:54 PM
Wow, what a thread.

Thanks branded, pig, soundman for all that info. Took me a few hours to dive down and understand everything. I am only a bioengineering major so my EE knowledge is quite limited but I understood most of it.

I'll try and order the lights soon. As soon as TRSMatt gets back to me.

(Trying to figure out what size my car needs)

And i plan on replicating the aluminum ring, and the current DC current converter. real quick,

if I order my own ebay/branded current converted, I would have to remove the stock driver correct? Where is that stock driver on the ring? It might be obvious to one, but I haven't received the ring yet.


Also, cutting that aluminum, what tools did you use? .008" are you sure thats a correct measurement? Because if it was that thin, it sounds like I would be able to use scissors!

After cutting those rings, any advice for a 22 year old who is about to attempt the same thing? Thanks.

branded
July 21st, 2012, 09:39 PM
To make the ring...I just laid one ring inside the other and traced on the aluminum sheet (KB .008 I bought in a local HW Store) with a fine point Sharpie....

I first rough cut the inside diameter using a dremel tool with a cutoff disc. If you try any other way you'll likely distort the aluminum to the point it will be unusable....

Once I had the middle cut out I used the dremel with a course sanding drum and sanded the opening until it was smooth to my drawn line.

The outside perimiter I cut with a pair of scissors....

The "driver" on the XB is plugged into the ring (via a two conductor cable with plug) on one side and pigtailed on the other. The ring unplugs cleanly from the supplied driver. The ring will have just a pendant two wire cable and plug on its end without the driver attached.

soundman98
July 21st, 2012, 09:46 PM
Wow, what a thread.

Thanks branded, pig, soundman for all that info. Took me a few hours to dive down and understand everything. I am only a bioengineering major so my EE knowledge is quite limited but I understood most of it.

don't be afraid to stick around, it only gets better!! :lol:


if I order my own ebay/branded current converted, I would have to remove the stock driver correct? Where is that stock driver on the ring? It might be obvious to one, but I haven't received the ring yet.

the stock driver is in the little silver cylinder that is included with the rings-- it attaches to the rings with a white connector, so it is very easy to separate from the rings. connecting the rings to a different driver is a little more intensive, but not bad..

the nice thing about the stock driver is that polarity doesn't matter-- just hook one wire to + and one to - and it will work-- but once you don't use that driver, it becomes very important that the pinkish-red wire is positive, and the white wire is negative-- if it gets hooked up wrong, it could damage the rings. just something to keep in mind.

lockdown36
July 21st, 2012, 10:59 PM
Great, thanks for the info guys! Looks like I'll definitely be looking into drivers now.

you found .008" aluminum at your local HW store? wow ok, i was thinking about going down to the metal shop we have in my city, but lowes it is!

Anything you would have done differently with making the heat sink? Such as the kind of glue did you used to put the ring on. Maybe something that has a better heat transfer could be better. I dont know how JB Weld is rated on heat transfer, but maybe even add some of that thermal paste we use for our CPUs on it?

It'll probably make a negligible difference, I'm just brain storming.

Importantly, how did you know what size to order?

I dont want to order the wrong size, open my headlights and have to close them up and wait for another order. How do i measure my projector without opening the front?





I have a 2012 Camry.
15040

Here is a factory image
15041

soundman98
July 21st, 2012, 11:11 PM
if i remember right-- and i believe it's listed earlier in this thread somewhere, all the 'ordering dimensions' is the outside ring diameter, and the ring it-self is 5mm in width, so the inner diameter is 10mm in diameter less then the outer ring. so order a 105mm ring, and the inside dimension will be 95mm.

i won't go any further then that because i really have no idea what ring size you need...

lockdown36
July 21st, 2012, 11:23 PM
Yeah thats exactly what I read to somewhere back there.

I just dont know how to measure my projector/area of interest.

How did you measure your lights?


And also soundman

You posted an Ebay link back one page for a driver, but it outputs 3A? Instead of 500? Was that just an example? Am I suppose to go look for the 500A one?

I am also looking at this driver:
http://www.ledsupply.com/03023-d-e-500p.php
(http://www.ledsupply.com/03023-d-e-500p.php)
My EE isn't up to par with you guys, but

What does Ref and CTRL mean?
Ref is ground? CTRL? Control pin voltage?


Arg, more questions.


So if I wanted two voltage sources. One from DRL/ high beam and the other from low beams.... heres my schematic.

15045

When I flick on my high beams, whats going to happen with I have two voltage sources going to the halo...? =/ explode?
And it looks like I'm going to need to add diodes before the Halo? So the voltage from the DRL doesn't turn on my low beams.